DAO Deep Dive: Public Good DAOs

CharmVerse digs into public good DAOs with members of Gitcoin, Purple, and Nouns.

CharmVerse's Xandra Dozet had the pleasure of hosting a Twitter Space with guests

Azeem Khan of Gitcoin, Chris Carella of Purple, and Joshua Fisher of Nouns. They chat about public good DAOs, the good work they do together, and what it's like to be a DAO member in general. Are DAOs the future of work? Read on to find out what these fine people think or listen to the entire space on YouTube.

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CharmVerse: Today we're talking about DAOs. And there's all sorts of types of DAOs. Investment DAOs, Social DAOs, Curation DAOs. But today we're talking about Public Good DAOs such as Nouns, Gitcoin and Purple. So we are joined by Chris Carella, Azeem Khan and Joshua Fisher, all from public good DAOs, to help break down what it means to be a public good DAO, their respective missions, and the overall experience of being a part of a DAO. And I'm excited to dig into public good DAOs. So I figure we'll start by explaining what a public good DAO is and then we can go around and hear about each DAO, specifically the mission behind it and your role there. So, Azeem, do you want to kick it off with a broad overview of what a public good DAO is and then tell us about Gitcoin?

Azeem | Gitcoin: So I think the definitions for exactly what a public good DAO is are going to end up varying a little bit, and I'm curious what the other speakers end up saying, but I think it's partially because the idea of exactly what a public good is tends to vary quite a bit. And so from that perspective, public good DAO is just going to be one that is helping distribute public goods in the way that they see fit. Honestly, that's the simplest way I've ended up explaining it to most people. One of the big things about public goods, at least to me, has been a lot of times when people hear it, they think about the idea of charity. Because, like, clean water or access to libraries or roads are the ideas of public goods in the traditional world. Whereas in the web3 world or in the software world, it's like open source software is a public good. And as we've gone into Web3, unbundling a lot of Web Two services that sold us privatized services that we see as not being public goods, it's going to be a really big change in understanding for people to see what public goods are. And so search engines should be a public good, financial transaction should be a public good. And there's so many other examples like that that we've been accustomed to not seeing as such. And so public goods DAO is going to end up just being how different organizations, if you want to use as a parallel or an analogy, like as a DAO, is helping to distribute those services to people across the board.

And then at Gitcoin, what we do and have been doing for years now is helping fund open source software, among other things, using grants with a novel funding mechanism called quadratic funding which was invented by Vitalik, Glen Weyl, and forgetting the other author on the paper. But it's basically an anti whale mechanism where you're able to help distribute capital in a way that the community sees fit and that is done based on a matching pool being raised from wherever it is. But then the way that the capital is actually allocated is that the community votes with their dollars and for each dollar there's an additional X dollars that gets donated based on what the quadratic formula is for that specific matching pool. And so it's a way that the community gets to decide where they feel capital should go and Gitcoin has been quite successful, if I might say so myself in being able to do this. To date, we have helped distribute over $72 million and we have helped spawn many of some of the most successful companies in web3 in some capacity. We've been supportive of them. So Uniswap, Optimism, Yearn, Dune, Bankless, MakerDAO, Wallet Connect. Ethers js, POAP, Tornado Cash. So many of the amazing companies in this space were at some point a Gitcoin grantee. And so that is what we do in the spirit of helping further foster the public good ecosystem in our own little way.

CharmVerse: So let's move over to Chris. Tell us about Purple. Chris is the co founder of Purple and it was founded very recently. So Chris, tell us about that and any other points you want to mention about public good DAOs?

Chris | Purple: So yeah, I think there's just a little bit set up, but Purple is about two weeks old and we're a Nounish DAO, which we can discuss what that means. But yeah, just like on the notion of public goods, it's often maybe more technical definition. It's like a non state sponsored or non corporate owned infrastructure. And so I believe pretty passionately for a very long time now that social networks should be a public good. They shouldn't be owned by billionaires or public companies, they shouldn't have the incentive to suck up all of their information and build a business model on top of that. And so the social network itself should be a public good. And we've seen a couple of attempts at decentralized social and so this would sort of be a decentralized protocol where maybe you can do a microblog or you can do your photograph or your tik tok video that would be stored in like a very decentralized public way. And there's a protocol called Farcaster.

So the Farcaster protocol is a distributed social network that works really great and it's the first time I've been really impressed about and really excited about and there's a client on top of it also. An app called the Farcaster app runs on top of the Farcaster protocol. It's really great. The protocol being open means that anyone can build anything on top of it. And in the early days, Farcaster is about 5000 people and growing weekly. But it has this developer vibe feeling like early Twitter when Twitter had APIs and lots of people built creative stuff on top of Twitter. But Twitter, being a private company, then decided to shut off all of those APIs and in some cases killed cool creative projects, in some cases killed whole companies. And so what we're trying to do with Purple is raise a treasury to fund developers working on the Farcaster of protocol who maybe don't necessarily have a commercial angle or a path to commercialization. And so these can be everything from art projects to open source projects, open source search engine built on Farcaster. And so that's just Purple's mission is to fund the ecosystem surrounding Farcaster. And then if I was going to really zero in on the things that we're incredibly excited about, it's funding developers to build cool stuff on top of Farcaster.

CharmVerse: And last but not least, Joshua, you're part of Nouns DAO. So tell us about the mission of this DAO and your role over there.

Joshua | Nouns: I think the simple definition on the website Nouns are an experimental attempt to improve the formation of on chain avatar communities. While such projects as Crypto Punks have attempted to bootstrap digital community and identity. Nouns attempt to bootstrap identity, community governance and a treasury that can be used by the community. I think that's like a pretty high level view of what's happening. Essentially. Nouns has been auctioning one NFT a day since last year and has accumulated a pretty large treasury. And so in terms of public goods, I think it's been an interesting project to be a part of. The first proposal to the DAO was to fund six charities. And so in my mind I thought that was like a really interesting signal of what this group of people thought was important. And I joined SharkDAO. So I found out about Nouns, saw the first auction be really successful, and joined a group, another DAO called SharkDAO, that was a group of individuals pulling together to try to win Nouns. And we are successful with number two and number five and a few more after that. We have six total now. And one of the things that we did was a program called Free Glasses for Kids and it was a project that just aligned perfectly with the meme of the nouns glasses, the Noggles. And it was something that was the number twelve proposal. So there's just been a history of doing things for public goods or for charities or, like, really just trying to put the power into the hands of individuals. And, like, I think this technology kind of allows for the middleman to be removed in some sense.

CharmVerse: When I was looking at it, that Glasses for Kids

project, were you the person that proposed that project?

Joshua | Nouns: Yes. So I had a relationship with a 3D glasses manufacturing company and local opticians and was able to just kind of like, figure it all out and make it work. So we're expanding that program and looking to find additional partners to keep growing that idea. Not to go on too much of a tangent, but vision is just such an important part of learning and life. So any time that you can help improve the vision, especially of children, it just has a great knock on effects, I think.

Nouns maybe pioneered this sort of auction model for DAOs. There's like a very Nounish way. I'm very Nounish. And I've realized now that I'm like, too deep and even people in crypto often don't know what I'm saying. But the Nouns kind of software auctions off one noun every 24 hours. And when you win that auction, you're now a member of the DAO. And for every one Noun you hold, you get one vote and all of the governance votes. And there's a lot more to it. It's like all that money goes into a shared treasury, which is like, really a smart contract and not like your typical Gnosis multisig. And funds can only be released if enough people vote to release the funds. And some Nouners created that as like, a generic software platform recently called noun stop build is the URL and it's out there and it's free to use and there are no protocol fees. And Purple was built on top of that. And so Nouns itself, as an infrastructure, is a public good because now lots of people can kind of build these DAOs that have recurring funding mechanisms. And those recurring funding systems, I think, are really great for all kinds of public goods and nonprofits and, you know, anyone who's perpetually trying to raise money and sometimes without even a commercial angle to it.

CharmVerse: So, Azeem, I'm going to get back to you. I'm curious, I think a lot of people are looking into DAOs. They don't know which one might be a right fit for them. How did you end up at Gitcoin?

Azeem | Gitcoin: I got to be really honest, I ended up here by mistake. I would love to tell anybody that my journey in crypto as a whole has been nearly as intentional as it may look when I tell the story of it. But I had a Web3 backed crowdfunding platform that I raised money from VCs for last year called Pollinate and got to launch like a token and built a product and launched a product and helped some people get funding and the VCs were token dumping on me and it just like was a year of immense burnout in every way, shape and form. And so I ended up leaving in December from that project and took a couple of months off where I was just doing consulting with various things in the NFT music space. I've got a background in the music industry. I was doing some stuff with some other larger brands through friends of mine who owned agencies that had clients that needed help on Web3 related projects. And I had actually done Kernel, which is a spin off from Gitcoin. And for anyone who's not familiar with Kernel, it's an eight week cohort based program similar to an OnDeck where you can remotely be part of the learning environment for Web3. I've never seen something that's so well structured in teaching people Web3, but I had done that program. I had heard about Gitcoin grants just as a whole and how some of the people in the cohort had applied for different grants or various grants during the round. And I'd also seen the founder, Scott, speak on some of the Fireside chats that we had and I was just like, this guy's awesome. I want to actually speak to him before I apply for a Gitcoin grant. I'm interested in doing some stuff in impact DAOs and some stuff around, like what Alchemix is doing with being able to borrow a certain percentage against money that's put up that's earning APY, so it's a self repaying loan or things like that. And in our conversation between Scott and I, it was just like, yo, Azeem, actually, would you be interested in joining the partnerships team? And at the time, I wasn't working on anything actively and all my experiences with Gitcoin to that point had been honestly awesome. And so I was like, yes, grow it, let's do it. And now, months later, I helped lead all partnerships and fundraising for us and so totally was not by any means on purpose. I'd say the biggest thing that I would say, though, as a whole and success of anything is just, like, curiosity. And that's the thing that's always driven me. I got into this space in 2013 when I was writing about it for the Huffington Post and just, like, buying and selling crypto and, like, Bitcoin cost $100/$200. I tried launching something called Kim Coindashian in 2014. Yes, I got a ton of press for it, and then I got to see that's it yes. And so it's like, I've just been experimenting with the space in a way that's just been, like, fun and screwing around. And I won't lie though, like, at times I've been like, man, I've been in this space for so long and I am not crazy rich. But then this week was, like, a good reminder that a lot of the people who got crazy rich really quickly are all just scammers.

Joshua | Nouns: You should totally launch a nounish DAO and do cool stuff. I think you would have some fun with it. You could go to Nouns builder and they would probably work with you to create something really unique and special. And then you could launch it and do, like, the one a day or one a week or one a month.

Azeem | Gitcoin: I'm absolutely going to hit you because one of the reasons I wanted to speak to Nouns as a whole was I'm going to be running the Boston Marathon. That's happening in 2023, which is the ten year anniversary of the one that I ran in 2013 that had the bombings, and I wasn't able to finish it because of the attacks. But there's, like a couple of different angles where I've been exploring with some publicists about turning this into, like, a really big thing. And I found out the most money ever raised by a single runner for the American Liver Foundation, who I'm running with, is only $65,000. Not to say that's, like, nothing. But at Gitcoin we raise millions of dollars a quarter. And I think it could be an excellent opportunity to be able to show the world, like by raising 650, that crypto can do actual good for regular people and create a touch point of positive thinking around Web3 from people who would never, ever be part of crypto in any way. So I'll message you about that because it's something I've been thinking about the last couple of weeks, and I saw that Nouns ended up sponsoring someone's bid for the New York City Marathon too, and put Narage's face on it.

Joshua | Nouns: Yeah, that was awesome. We love doing outside of the box things. It's really interesting that Nouns was, like, part of the founding ethos, was proliferation of the Meme. And so what does that really mean and how do you really achieve that and doing good stuff? We have people getting funded to do beach cleanups and we have people getting funded to do like, small town, like organizing small towns and like, doing dinners or like doing all sorts of different community events. There's something just really unique about being able to be regular people, supporting regular people, and totally no friction and no middleman necessary.

Azeem | Gitcoin: Yeah, Nouns has done it so well. I'm definitely going to shoot you a note after this so we could discuss this because I think that there's a really cool opportunity. I've even been having conversations like the publicists are talking to journalists at the New York Times and stuff because I can tie the story of like, the ten year to it and being like a Pakistani American Muslim who ran that race. And I wasn't a suspect as an attacker, I was a victim. So I had done a HuffPost piece that went viral around then for that specific reason. So with the ten year, I was like, yo, now I'm 34. I'll be 35 when I run the race. It's very different running as our practicing. I did a nine mile run on Sunday. So training is going well, thankfully. But just like the idea, I want to find a way to turn it into a a much bigger thing that we can create some buzz around as something bigger than myself. And like, I literally have on my to do list is like, hit up Nouns.

Joshua | Nouns: I do want to kind of touch back on something that you mentioned earlier, which is like, how you define public goods and open source software, because that's a big part of what this technology maybe allows. There's something really special to me of like, sometimes you'll be using an application and it's like, I love this. And then it gets updated and you're like, I don't love this. Chris, maybe you could kind of chime in here too. Like something like with Farcaster, you could almost say, no, I'm just going to use me and my friends. We're just going to use Farcaster, like version 1.6 forever. And theoretically those features would work forever. New features might not work, but the features that were there would still be accessible. Am I understanding that right?

Chris | Purple: Yeah, that's right. But also I think that's true. Right? So one open source software powers the whole world. A lot of when we're talking about public goods, a lot of them like the greater nonprofit space. I think when you talk about public goods, it's public education, it's clean water, it's highways. A lot of it, when we talk about it in Web3 often boils down to open source software that doesn't encapsulate everything. But that is a lot of this stuff. And not only what you just said, but people can build their own they can fork the code and build their own clients on top of that. And so obviously need a certain level of technical prowess to do that. But I think something like Twitter is a perfect example where there is so much energy around Twitter. And had that been a protocol, we could have had versions of the client that didn't have algorithms that prioritize outrage. And there's just a lot of different what would the world be like if we were al lin web3? And so I think that's, like, having open protocols and open source software and then on our opinion, being able to fund people to build that stuff again, especially people who don't have business models, it just feels like a net benefit to the world. Right?

CharmVerse: As DAOs become more prevalent, I feel like there's still a lot of people that are skeptical about it. So let's just talk about the overall experience of being a part of a DAO, kind of what you love, pain points, governance. So people really get an idea of what it's like to be part of a DAO. So let's start with the Azeem again. What's your favorite thing about DAOs? What do you think is the strongest point of a DAO?

Azeem | Gitcoin: I think the biggest thing has been how easily you can spin it up and just get going on working on things right away. I mean, like, just a few moments ago, Josh was like, we can spin up a DAO and we could figure out some cool stuff that you can do, as opposed to figuring out what type of corporate entity you want to spin up and then submit it and pay hundreds and hundreds of dollars in random fees for random things. Pay a lawyer a bunch of money, figure out an EIN, set up a bank account. Wire transfers take forever. And so as opposed to that, I love just how frictionless it is and how you can work with people anywhere because of that.

CharmVerse: Absolutely. Like Joshua said, skip the middle man. And like you said, get to work. Chris, what about pain points? You're in a bunch of DAOs. I know, but pain points within DAOs, Purple is still new. Are you experiencing pain points there yet?

Chris | Purple: Let me separate those two things. And let me answer the last question also. Let me just answer that last question, like, what my favorite thing is about DAOs. So at a very high level and very theoretically, I feel like we're speed running new ways to do human organization and government, and we're doing it in a way where these things can fail and they have minimal societal impact, where it's, like, very hard to change the way we vote, say, in your country's election, because the consequences of making a mistake in the voting mechanism is catastrophic. And so there's a very theoretical level where it's like, we can do lots of experimentations with organizations and just how they're structured and how governance should work and what companies should look like, even, which let me put in on that and say that will also come to the problems. And the second part is, practically speaking, my favorite thing is the people. The network inside the Dow is actually, in my opinion, the reason to join a DAO. And so my first kind of real DAO was SharkDAO. And I've just made lifelong friends and met such good people and they introduced me to the other concepts and things they're interested in. And all of the DAOs that I've had good experiences in, which is most of them, the good experiences really are like making friends, meeting other people, working on cool projects together and getting those projects funded. Sometimes I have been awarded tokens from a DAO for the work I've done, but mostly it's just good to have someone cover the cost of the thing you're trying to do. That being said, there are tons of problems with DAOs. They're all very different. So it's hard to sort of generalize the problems of DAOs. There's no right way to do a DAO. And like I said, we're in this period of experimentation, so lots of things are happening often. A lot of the challenges tend to be around voter participation. And so if you need 10% of your DAO-base to pass the proposal, but only 5% of your DAO-base are still active, it becomes very hard to do anything. And so proposals and engagement with your DAO, those are sort of like industry wide issues. And then I'll come to Purple, which is just we're just so new. On one hand, it's so easy to set up a DAO and especially using Nouns builder to do a Nounish DAO . And then there's so much more work once you get started, because now you have new people joining the DAO every day, you're trying to organize them, get along the lines. Like in my case, I'm trying to not be the one who does everything. And so we have two proposals, I wrote them both. We have a third proposal. I'm trying to encourage other people to write them. And so in the very early days, I think some of the challenges are just making sure everyone feels ownership of this thing and that, it's funny, On one hand, it's like I'm the co founder of Purple. On the other hand, I'm just now one of 13 token holders. And so I have no real special powers or abilities. And so just even propagating that within our own DAO and let everyone know, OK, this isn't my thing, this is our thing, is one of the things I've just been working a lot on in the last two weeks.

CharmVerse: Joshua, do you want to add anything, either favorite things or pain points that you want to share? Like Chris said, it can change, DAO to DAO, right. Everyone is different. So yeah, what have you experienced? Good and bad?

Joshua | Nouns: Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. DAO is essentially a structure option for building a group of people to try to make decisions and launch projects or do a variety of things. One of the things that I think is kind of interesting about the space is I've seen a lot of people come in, add value and then leave and be celebrated for that. So it's like there's like less expectation that you're going to be full-time at one of these things. Sometimes it allows you to spread your like if you have a specific skill set, you can find a few groups that can all use that and be rewarded differently from them all. And I guess really emphasizing the relationship part is ultimately what it's all about. I think you're looking for like minded people who are trying to achieve the same goals.

CharmVerse: Yes. I like that you guys are talking a lot about the relationships and the people and the friends that you're making through these. And another thing you mentioned was people coming in, lending value and then leaving. And I think that's something worth talking about, too, is you don't need to stay in a DAO forever. If your heart is not in it, if it's not the right fit, you can walk away. And that takes me to my next point, is the engagement within these DAO and feel like at CharmVerse, that's what we hear a lot is it just there's not enough engagement. How do we get people to care about these votes and participate? So I guess across the board I just want to know how are you creating engagement? What's the engagement rate like within the DAOs, is everyone kind of I'm asking this because CharmVerse launched recently our proposal builder and the whole point is to get more of the community engaged in the creation of the proposal, whether it's suggested edits, comments, stuff like that. So Azeem, why don't you tell us how that works over at Gitcoin?

Azeem | Gitcoin: Honestly, I think it ends up working similar to how it is in a lot of DAOs is that engagement is definitely done by a smaller number of people. And one of the things that has bothered me not only in Gitcoin but just like basically in all DAOs is that things either pass with like 99.9% of the votes or like they get obliterated at 99.9% of the no. But one of the things I've been thinking a lot about when it comes to community because I got on to discord some years back and what I observed as I had, like, joined servers which, while maybe not like the best home for DAOs, and there will probably be another one soon. I always found them to sort of be like if Reddit and Slack had a baby. Like Subreddit and a Slack had a baby. It became like a discord. And as someone who's been a longtime Reddit user and for the most part a lurker, I don't think that there's anything that's too wrong. Or at least it feels really natural that there are a lot of people who are there just like not to actively participate, but just to really enjoy actually sitting and reading whatever is coming up and not even necessarily commenting on anything. And in the same way that in any of those subreddits that they're just like power users. And I think this applies in most communities as a whole. Even going to the Parents Teacher Union, I'm not a parent myself, but there are some parents who are like 1 million% into it and there are others who just like drop their kids off at school. And so I haven't seen this necessarily as something that's a flaw of the system, but more so just something that's designed into us as people. Could totally be wrong, but at least as I've observed it and looked at it across like, parallel places, it seems like there's nothing wrong and that this is just like a natural human behavior or tendency.

CharmVerse: I agree and I know you touched on that in that article I mentioned earlier. I think the idea of DAOs is totally flattening our hierarchy is nearly impossible because there are always leaders that rise to the top. It just seems innate in people. Joshua, what do you think? How is it working over at Nouns?

Joshua | Nouns: So two things I think about that is one thing that's kind of interesting about this space is you can give I don't want to say power, but you can give responsibility and take responsibility quickly, right? Like you can take it away or give it and the token could be the thing I think about that. How do you create positions where people can be responsible for a lot and have a big role, but the community can still decide if you're not doing your role good anymore to like quickly just say, alright, that's over. You're not speaking for the company anymore, like the community has decided or for the organization, but that's a little more like theoretical in practical terms. For Nouns, I think the issuance has been a huge benefit to participation because it's just one new member of the DAO every day. So like, you know, we actually have like a team of people who will like, personally reach out and say, hey, welcome to the DAO. Here's how things work. If you're curious of like, exploring things, here's where you should go if you're looking for a certain type of activities, like, maybe this person is helpful. And so that's allowed us to, I think, have a lot more engagement in voting. And so, you know, we just passed 500 NFTs. I think we're somewhere around like 300 members. There's actually like, really great tools out there to be able to tell this information. But like a proposal 167 to fund the Nouns Builder Protocol passed with the 143 to 108 vote. So there's kind of some contention and some strong opinions on both sides happening in a lot of our proposals. And so it's been pretty interesting to see it kind of play out and it gets more and more difficult as you grow. So I can't imagine what, like, a 10K collection would be like.

CharmVerse: Yeah, absolutely. And again, all DAOs are different, right? Azeem is saying proposals are getting blown out of the water one way or the other. And you're having pretty close calls, it seem in yours. Chris, so you said you've written up a couple of proposals. No votes yet, though.

Chris | Purple: Yeah, no, we've passed two proposals, but the first proposal passed when I think there were only two members and it was very small to just change kind of our mission statement and just had a bug in it. It wasn't like we dramatically changed it, it was just like, there's some erroneous HTML in here, let's both change that. The second one, which just passed yesterday, and we had like 50% engagement, but again, we're so small that 50% engagement is five or six people was for our first small grants distribution. So we're going to offer five ETH in grants to people who already built great stuff on Farcaster. It's so funny. I was thinking about this earlier today, Joshua. I'm happy you just said it. I was thinking about, like well, because our issuance is just one a day, I probably should have a team or even my system. It can be me offer to meet everyone and just welcome them on, like a video chat and generally get us all aligned. That being said. And the auction price might go up. I think we do need something like that. It is interesting to organize a bunch of people over the internet who we've never met or spoken, and lots of DAOs work that way. But given the once a day issuance makes it much easier. I'm still at the level where if the vote goes up, I can DM every single member of that and let them know it's happening.

Joshua | Nouns: But you also get that opportunity to say, if you want to support this mission, but you're not able to or willing to participate in the governance of this, you can delegate. And so if you have, like, a good portion of thoughtful delegation happening, and you have, like, thoughtful delegates who are, like, you know, have a certain amount of people that they're like reaching out to and making sure that they know what's happening with their votes. That's a different thing than when I sign up for ENS and it's just like delegate to me.

CharmVerse: Chris, I'm curious to see how Purple grows and kind of the growing pains that come with it. We might need to have you on again in a couple of months or so to see how everything's going.

Chris | Purple: For sure. It's all in the public. The auction is public, our discord is public. We actually have a CharmVerse space that we make all of the pages public. And so I know Nouns is like this, too, and I basically took it from being inspired by them. But it's like I strongly believe every DAO is different. So every DAO can have their own thing, but I strongly believe our DAO should be working in public. And so even if you can't afford a token or decide not to buy a token, you can still be in our community, you can still see what the token holders are talking about and decisions they made. And we've seen it already, like people who don't hold tokens. But I threw up a draft here's our public goods, our first funding round. And it's like non DAO members have made edits or made suggestions or word changes. So that's pretty great. And so I think there's just another while I'm on this role, there's another thing where it's like you actually don't really need to be in a DAO. Mostly means you're a token holder and you get both and you get governance. But one of the things I've been inspired by Nouns is like, can be a part of the community. And so even though I don't hold a Noun myself, it's like I very much feel a part of the Nouns community. And there's a certain power to that also, which is like, this is not just all the financialization of governance. It's like you have a trusted set of people who get votes and they help fill the treasury, so they get those votes, but they're still listening to people who are outside the DAO, particularly because you work in public and so people can see everything you're doing. And then some people have valid and smart opinions.

CharmVerse: I want to hear each of you speak to how you think DAOs will change the future of work or and or what the future of DAOs is. We definitely didn't get to all the questions I wanted to, but that's totally fine. Good conversation happening. So, Joshua, why don't you start? How will DAOs change the future work and what are the future of DAOs?

Joshua | Nouns: Well, sounds like a great question for Azeem.

CharmVerse: Way to pass the buck.

Azeem | Gitcoin: Honestly, I don't see it as the only but I see it as an alternative to way that we run corporations at the moment. There are a lot of things that need to be sorted out, which I did mention in that article. Like, if you work in a DAO like myself in many ways, like you're working for a start up, but there's no regular agreements. Like, are you a 1099 or a W2? Do your agreements even hold weight in US jurisdictions or in other places? If you end up being taken advantage of in some capacity? Are there token vesting the way that there's equity vesting over time? Are we educating people about being part of the tax system? I've seen so many people who have no idea how they're supposed to file their taxes, even when they're trying to do it, not even when they're just trying to, like, finesse the system. So I think there's a lot of issues at the moment, but I think as time goes on, it's likely with tools and just maturity in the space, it's going to become a serious alternative to being able to set up just like, an organization that allows you to just get to it very quickly in the future. I know that basically every company in the last two years has been raising money for DAO Tooling. Not that any of it has panned out yet, but at some point it will, cause at the moment, there are aspects to doing DAOs that are difficult. And, like, I'm really looking forward to seeing that stuff mature. So that, you know, whether you're in India or Brazil or Nigeria, you can quickly spin up a company and be able to work with people fully remote, pseudo or fully anonymously and be able to transact globally in this really interesting, frictionless way. I think there's also the potential for things to go the way that Balaji has talked about, where people like go move to the middle of nowhere and have, like, spun up a DAO that there's some sort of token gated access to be part of the community. And they have their own way of handling their currency and handle everything like that. It seems like a really far flung idea, but I actually do believe the possibility of it being real. And so I'd say we're at the really, really early stages, but there's a lot of super interesting potential for ways that this could end up going.

Joshua | Nouns: I'm so glad I passed that to you. That was a really great answer. And I guess to double down on that and something kind of you said too, Chris, just like, the ability to make these decisions quicker and have the tools that are being created just allow for new organizational decision making. And it is really interesting to see how they're used together. I guess Snapshot was a big change for me because it was like and then doing, like, on chain governance. That was really interesting to see, like, logging in and making your choice and then everyone, you know, just, like, seeing how people really feel in real time. There's been a lot of examples where we're back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, and then it's just like, we'll just put it on chain and see what people want to do. And sometimes the answer is no. And it's hard, but at least, you know, and that's like a new thing too in business, I think, especially for creatives, when creatives, like, pitching ideas and like, this is what I want to do. This is how much it cost. Do you want to do it? Yes or no? And then it gets voted on and you just know the answer.